Nikki Newman will you marry me????????????

Ok back to reality...LOL...Perfect reaction!!! Gosh I love Nikki and I know she will be running to spill the beans.

Yeah things are heating up alright...offscreen.

It was a great scene having Nikki walk in on them, but would have been better had we saw something.

Um, yeah, something tells me Nikki doesn't want to play for their team.

holy crap! looks good to me, i don't mind letting my imagination do the work for me, for now...and remember, CBS approved the kiss, but y/r kiboshed it the first time!

i love y/r and think its one of the best dramas on tv.But some of these storylines our kind of similar to passions very campy

Nikki: guy-on-guy action is soooooo hot!

LOL. love the look on Nikki's face and why wouldn't she be surprised? Ole Adam's been banging Heather in every room of that ranch. lol As for Rafe and Adam pulling on each other's collar and or clothes, reminds me of 'age of innocence.' lol Uh, we're a few years past that CBS and Y and R.

OK, when Rafe grabs Adam's shirt...that would have been a great kiss. (I'm still up for "Bleeding Love" being Rafe/Adam's love song...)

It's hilarious in that Adam was plotting minutes before on how to dump Rafe gently but when he needs to, he grabs on to seducing Rafe to keep him in line.

Love the preview of Nikki going to Victor to tell him. Can't wait for Victor's reaction!

Okay, Y&R is about to make me talk bad about them. U can have a heifer poisoning kids, but not show a gay kiss? Getting old already...

Jamey
something tells me if Phillip the 3rd dates a guy we will see them kiss. Tom Bierdz wants this to be realistic so i think he would fight for a on-screen kiss

Jamey,

Maybe Y&R is being cautious because of the Engen blowback. Hopefully, in a few months, if there is a relationship between Rafe and P3, the show might show a kiss.

Of course, it's odd to think that 10 years after Will & Grace appeared, people are still freaking out about a kiss.

I wonder if the Luke and Noah story has helped ATWT or hurt its ratings?

I wonder if the Luke and Noah story has helped ATWT or hurt its ratings?
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In all honesty, I would have to say that I think it hurts ratings. Although it doesn't bother me, you think of your primary audience. The elderly retirees, or elderly women that have been watching for 20+ years. The older generation certainly is not keen to homosexual relationships. And also, DC posted a story a few months back about African-American's being the primary race watching. They aren't keen to homosexual either. So, although the stories are great, and gain a lot of publicity, the numbers are telling you that they aren't helping. I mean, that is also due to the fact that only about 3 soaps write worth a crap these days, but still. The genre itself is a sinking boat, and no story, gay, straight, real, fantasy, foreign- nothing is helping.

"Hopefully, in a few months, if there is a relationship between Rafe and P3, the show might show a kiss. "

Wow, that sounds pathetic now that I think about it...

ATWT was happy to show a brother kissing his sister passionately...

Hmm...Maybe Roger Friedman was right about P&G wanting to repulse its viewers into turning off its shows??

CGat,

I agree with most of your posting. The other side of the coin is that the soaps don't care that much about their African-American viewers anyway. If the shows could gain affluent white male or female gay viewers, the soaps would have better leverage with advertisers.

Advertisers want to sell to key demographics. If the perception is that black viewers are not affluent (poor), then advertisers believe they won't purchase their goods and services.

Also, if the perception is that younger viewers are more gay-friendly, driving off older viewers who are less desirable in exchange for younger viewer of all demographics is better.

Y&R, of course, had around 6 million viewers in 2005. It's down to around 4.7 million. Why did those viewers leave? The biggest hit to the ratings came under the reigns of Kay Alden and LML. (I just read that Y&R spent an extra $2 million on the Clear Springs building collapse story but it failed miserably to improve the ratings. Their big event failed. I wonder how that worked into LML's departure.)

I think gay characters are like African-American characters. Here today and gone tomorrow. All the soaps will try them for a while. Build up a storyline and then poof. ATWT has been the gay exception. Although Y&R and Days have had black characters on for long periods of time, those characters are frequently in minor roles and only appear once a month or so (Y&R's Winters).

It's hard to say gay stories drive viewers away when the main gay story [Luke and Noah] drove people away because they weren't kissing and the show put every obstacle in their way to keep them from kissing. If ATWT had been in great shape, and the ratings tanked because of the gay storyline, I could understand that, but that's not the case. The ratings did not go down when Luke and Noah first kissed, but viewers grew tired of being jerked around.

Let's not forget that women have been half of the audience for gay themed shows like THE LAIR, DANTE'S COVE, QUEER AS FOLK, and that African-American women made up a large portion of the audience for NOAH'S ARC. We do a disservice to African-Americans and older viewers when we assume they would not accept a gay storyline.

Joss, you make complete sense. I do remember reading back a while ago about the AA/advertising dilemma. But, despite advertisement, what's happening is that they are running off the loyal senior citizens and African Americans, without thinking that there are no new white teen viewers. At this point in time, your either a) a loyal soap viewer b) a past soapviewer who got ran out by people like LML, Kreizman, etc. or, c) someone who has, and never will watch soaps. They might think they can attract new viewers, but the fact is that they never will get enough viewers to count. So, what they should do is kiss the asses of the people who do, or did watch. I mean, just my opinion.

And I think I do agree about that last paragraph. I mean, I really can't see P3 and Rafe having a long-standing relationship, or Rafe even being a relevant character for long at all. I mean, at this point, I think the ones that still care are getting a bit desperate, and trying to keep up with the current times. Again, if they are trying to attract gay, or gay friendly audiences, they aren't going to get enough new viewers to count, especially as poorly as they advertise their shows. And if you can't write a story good enough for a couple it doesn't matter if it's two guy, two girls, a guy and a girl, or two gay tree monkeys- NO one will watch!
I guess I just get a bit frustrated when I think about the current state of the idiots ruining this industry. :/

I think maybe Y&R would show more if this were meant to be a genuine relationship between these two men, but we know it's completely contrived on one person's part---or at least it is at the moment.

Also, in terms of who would/wouldn't want to see more, my mother has watched this show since its debut, and she's beyond disgusted at this turn in the story, while it doesn't bother me at all, so there may be some concern about losing long-time viewers/the elderly because they may be opposed to such a storyline. I guess we'll see what happens if the discussion about Rafe and P3 turns out to be true.
As for Nikki's reaction today....that was priceless, and I too can't wait to see Victor's reaction to her latest discovery.

cmleidi, I have to say, you are talking about two TOTALLY different audiences here. It's a sketch to draw a comparison between Noah's Ark, and As The World Turns. It's hard to judge what happened to ATWT because the Nuke storyline was more or less the beginning of the time that ATWT started going to shambles. But nonetheless, many LOYAL World Turns viewers tuned out, gay story or not.

And, hello, Noah's Arc aired on LOGO!!!! A gay televesion station, for gay viewers, and Noah's Arc was had a full black cast! There is no way in hell you can draw a comparison or audience tally there to soaps.

Those other shows were gay-focused shows. The soaps are a totally different type of television. These are peoples stories. These elderly viewers have been watching since back when getting a 10.0 HH rating was bad. These are the people of the times when being gay was NOT accepted. These viewers are NOT the viewers of Queer as Folk and Noah's Arc. and I am drawing no disservice. There are seniors and AA's that are okay with it. but, as a general population, they are less acceptive of it.

And I can second what Melvin's Mom is talking about. My mama WAS an ATWT Fan, My grandma is a Y&R Fan. My mom quit ATWT long ago because of Nuke, and my grandma has been flipping out because of Adam and Rafe.

Was that a braille kiss? thinks Nikki, because the audience is not going to see a dam thing!

I think that viewers don't care about same sex couples as long as the s/l is good like Otalia and people will tune in. GL didn't get help from P&G so thats why the show is cancel, but I don't know why the show cares if a few people tune out, ratings is falling and the show needs all the ratings points that it can get so show them kissing.

I've never understood the need to focus on teen storylines during the school year. How many teens are home in time to watch the shows? Some might record them or watch them online, but they aren't going to make up that large of an audience. I could be wrong...

I'm also not saying that shows should cater to the bigotry of viewers. I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate and ponder what motivates soap execs and advertisers. These folks have a goal. Soaps are a product targeted at an audience.

Sacrificing older bigoted audiences is not a bad thing.

Should Y&R not have featured the Cane & Lily pairing to mollify racists? We all know that they are out there. Years ago CBS and Y&R killed a Neil and Victoria pairing to satisfy bigots.

Two things I have to say

1) I think, and hope eventually before this tryst is over that we see at least a kiss and hopefully a ripped shirt or something. LOL

2)By Adam being straight, and just manipulative, this story may not affect viewers like a true gay pairing would. This is why I think SOME conservative viewers wouldn't mind an Adam/Rafe, cause Adam's straight, and just being Adam. However viewer erosion may start to happen with a most likely more emotional lovey-dovey P3/Rafe pairing.

& Josstheguy, hopefully one of these days we will see a Neil & Victoria pairing. Vic and JT bore me to sleep. She's never going to be as good as she was with Ryan (dead), He's never going to be as good as he was with Dru (presumably dead), so there you go!

Some people aren't going to like gay storylines. Some people will. Some people don't like business storylines. Some people will. Some people want more lavish programs. Others want more realistic programming. I've stopped watching soaps because I've disliked storylines. That's the nature of the business. I know two people who've stopped watching YR because of Mary Jane and the cat. Does that mean shows shouldn't have crazy women talking to stuffed cats?? I know a 79 year old woman who thinks "Rafe is just the cutest thing and deserves better than that Adam."

When we make generalisations about what groups will or will not watch, we're not giving them the benefit of the doubt. There may be older viewers who tune out, but there are others who will stay and/or tune in. It's the same thing with African-Americans.

I brought up those others show because it shows that there is a market for these types of stories in groups that have been written off as gay-unfriendly. I'm sure the publishing industry was of the idea that African-American women wouldn't read novels about gay men until they saw the response to E. Lynn Harris's novels.

Cmleidi,

I don't disagree with you. I don't think that all older viewers and or African-American viewers will turn off a soap because of a gay storyline. Some will. How many is anyone's guess. Some people are racist and might have turned off Y&R because of the Cane and Lily pairing.

Gay characters aren't allowed the same kinds of physical displays of affections. Have you seen two guys going at it like we've seen Nick and Sharon? Has Bianca on AMC ever steamed up the screen with one of her lovers?

For me, I like the over all Y&R. I'd be happy not to see Phyllis, Jack, Nick and Sharon for a month or two. The rest of the storylines are intriguing.

Must say, I could use a nice return of Jeffrey and Gloria. They're a nasty treat!

There may be older viewers who tune out, but there are others who will stay and/or tune in.
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Since there is so much more tuning in lately? Right....

I mean, sure not all AA's or seniors are just going to cold turkey quit because of gay storylines. I am simply saying that as a group in general, they disapprove. I have no clue what the demographics are of the people who have quit watching soaps.
But in general, this industry is in the dumps. So if you are a SMART soap executive, you might try to cater to the people who still take the time out of their day to watch your show. Because, you've already ran off 50% of the audience. And I'm not talking about just the gay storylines. I am talking about it all. No one wants to see warped speed storytelling, bat chit crazy storylines, ang hair models on their t.v. everyday. When things the way they are, you give the people who are left what they want. Or guess what? THEY LEAVE.

My take is that Adam is a straight man. Straight guys who have sex with men will do anything BUT kiss. It's too intimate and sometimes it skeeves them out. It also allows them to keep thinking they are straight men. In that context, it doesn't bother me that Adam and Rafe are not kissing or touchy-feely.

Mike,

Adam is straight. He's willing to kiss and screw Rafe as part of his plan. Adam and Rafe were obviously kissing in today's episode when Nikki saw them.

This is not a love story, or a story about gay sex.

& You also have to take in consideration that Adam wants to make this seem real. Rafe almost stopped today, but you know when Adam brings out the big guns, Rafe just falls at his mercy.

Thank you guys for posting the 7/7 show, since it was pre-empted by MJ yesterday. Bless you!

Caption: Gasp - Is that Victor's tight black shirt Adam's wearing? I'm telling!

Re: Current conversation/debate - I hate generalizations (because they convey more people or even the majority think/are a certain way when sometimes the random sampling or stereotype it's based on is not well-researched or true for most), but CGat has a point - there are, in my opinion, some very vocal black female viewers and older viewers who will cry foul at a gay storyline (but on other forums, I've seen people from other "walks of life" complain, too - the cases I see the most of tend to be white "Christian" Southerners (but I doubt that's the majority of that "group's" feeling), mostly, that also complain about interracial storylines - again, things that can come from all areas). But I disagree that those who speak the loudest speak for the majority, and the numbers can change by region/city/etc... I know some people personally who fit that, but I know even more who don't.

As far as Victoria/Neil pairing, I found touching lines and believability in some of their conversations about Eve, but not much chemistry otherwise. I remember John Abbott/Mamie was largely complained about, and I personally thought that was believable, entertaining, and just plain lovely.

While I want to say "good riddance" (why I'm not a network exec) and definitely agree on showing those who stick around support and great stories (and not necessarily dumping controversial storylines that others left for, depending on if it's bad writing vs. personal beliefs), ratings are often the bottom line and the deal-breaker, and so I understand that they have to look after their bottom line - to an extent (taking a stand doesn't always work out, but I know I feel better when I do). However, just as people can threaten to pull support because they don't agree with a Late-night talk show host's comments or a relationship for race/gender reasons, I can also pull my support from those programs/companies/advertisers (and, if I really feel like they're catering to a rather hateful group, networks).

I try to respect the opinions of others (even/maye even especially if I don't agree - and don't want to see opposite viewpoints censored) as long as it doesn't lead to a particularly hurtful (not feelings so much as inciting/encouraging ill will that turns into something worse) situation, but it makes me ashamed (I think there's a difference between preference/personal reservations or feelings on a subject and bigotry - the latter seems to come out more often) the lengths people go to in order to try to get everyone to cater to their beliefs system.

Honestly, my sister and I feel like starting a drinking game for the number of times people say "I'll never watch again, if...", but then we'd be drunk all the time.

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